Whether the Idolatry Goats Require Laying On of Hands

"And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bull": the bull requires laying-on of hands, but the goats brought for communal idolatry do not require laying-on of hands. These are the words of Rabbi Yehudah. Rabbi Shimon says: the bull requires laying-on of hands by the elders, while the idolatry goats do not require laying-on of hands by the elders but rather by Aaron. They raised an objection from the verse "And Aaron shall lay his two hands upon the head of the live goat" (Leviticus 16:21): the live one requires laying-on of hands, but the idolatry goats do not require laying-on of hands. These are the words of Rabbi Yehudah. Rabbi Shimon says: "the live one" means the live goat requires laying-on of hands by Aaron, while the idolatry goats do not require laying-on of hands by Aaron but rather by the elders. Rav Sheshet said: Can you really suppose that first teaching was correctly framed? Did not Rabbi Shimon say we require laying-on of hands by the owners? Rather, frame it thus: "the bull" means the bull requires laying-on of hands but the idolatry goats do not; these are the words of Rabbi Yehudah. Rabbi Shimon says: "the live one" means the live goat requires laying-on of hands by Aaron, while the idolatry goats do not require it by Aaron but by the elders. And this is what Rabbi Shimon said to Rabbi Yehudah: the idolatry goats do require laying-on of hands, and if you have heard that they do not, it was only with respect to Aaron that you heard it, and that exclusion comes from "the live one." And as for Rabbi Yehudah, why does he need to exclude them from verses? Did not Ravina say it is a received tradition that there are two layings-on of hands in a communal offering? That is merely a textual marker. And Rabbi Shimon, from where does he derive that the idolatry goats require laying-on of hands? He derives it from what was taught (on verse 24): "And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat"—to include the goat of Nachshon for laying-on of hands, the words of Rabbi Yehudah. Rabbi Shimon says: to include the idolatry goats for laying-on of hands; for Rabbi Shimon used to say, every sin-offering whose blood is brought inside requires laying-on of hands. Why then is the verse needed? It is merely a textual marker. And one might say it refers to the goat made inside; it is analogous to the goat of the prince, which atones for a transgression of a known commandment. And according to Ravina, who said it is a received tradition that there are two layings-on of hands in a communal offering, why are the verses needed? Both the law and the verse are needed, for from the verse alone I would have said it refers to communal peace-offerings, and so forth.